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Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 12:12 am
by Noctis_
The following is a clip of a wolf pack with young pups, defending the den against what seems to be a stranger-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcTsWXOZMzQ

I found this interesting, largely because of the pack's seeming hesitance to kill the stranger. The pack has a clear advantage, so why they were so hesitant about attacking the intruder, and why the intruder charged into the pack, knowing her disadvantage, is a mystery. I thought I'd share.

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:06 am
by paperpaws
Heh, I was watching this just now because of your post in the Ctrl+V thread. This was an interesting watch, though I also have no idea why they were not more aggressive and am in no position to make an educated guess. The "attacker" looked pretty ragged, and I couldn't tell if she had her tail ripped off or if it was simply tucked between her legs. Maybe killing her would've been a waste of energy? She looked no match for the rest of them.

The sound effects (that are used in the WQ game too) put me off a bit due to them just sounding comically fake, but I get why they were added, heh.

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 3:52 am
by Koa
Moved to Wolf Multimedia.

The narrator does mention does pose the same question, and mentions that they might have not killed her because they knew each other (or were related)? I suppose she wasn’t worth the effort, though her leg looked rather snagged when she was being forefully pulled from the den. I’ll have to look at this again later, but I think the pack did the bare minimum of what they needed to do here.

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:50 pm
by Phasoli
I remember encountering this video a few days ago. I can't help but wonder why the stranger was so set upon going after the pups. Was it so that she could eat them, or simply to kill them? That's one aspect of wolf behaviour that I still don't understand. Why would a stranger go after pups?

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:59 pm
by JubJub The Lummox
Noctis_ wrote:The following is a clip of a wolf pack with young pups, defending the den against what seems to be a stranger-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcTsWXOZMzQ

I found this interesting, largely because of the pack's seeming hesitance to kill the stranger. The pack has a clear advantage, so why they were so hesitant about attacking the intruder, and why the intruder charged into the pack, knowing her disadvantage, is a mystery. I thought I'd share.
Ive actually watched this whole documentary, the narrator speculates the intruder was once part of the pack or is related to them. That makes it more feasible that they decided not to be vicious.
Phasoli wrote:I remember encountering this video a few days ago. I can't help but wonder why the stranger was so set upon going after the pups. Was it so that she could eat them, or simply to kill them? That's one aspect of wolf behaviour that I still don't understand. Why would a stranger go after pups?
I believe when they attack pups it is simply a learnt/instinctive behaviour to avoid the future of a larger pack taking over their territory. For example, in this same documentary there was a mother who had something like 6 pups, she was howling, but sadly for her, she was on another packs territory, so the female from the other pack went into her makeshift den and killed every single pup after the pack had chased the mother away.

For the simple fact that in less than two years that pack would have been 7 adult wolves.

:/

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:06 pm
by Koa
JubJub The Lummox wrote:
Noctis_ wrote:The following is a clip of a wolf pack with young pups, defending the den against what seems to be a stranger-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcTsWXOZMzQ

I found this interesting, largely because of the pack's seeming hesitance to kill the stranger. The pack has a clear advantage, so why they were so hesitant about attacking the intruder, and why the intruder charged into the pack, knowing her disadvantage, is a mystery. I thought I'd share.
Ive actually watched this whole documentary, the narrator speculates the intruder was once part of the pack or is related to them. That makes it more feasible that they decided not to be vicious.
Phasoli wrote:I remember encountering this video a few days ago. I can't help but wonder why the stranger was so set upon going after the pups. Was it so that she could eat them, or simply to kill them? That's one aspect of wolf behaviour that I still don't understand. Why would a stranger go after pups?
I believe when they attack pups it is simply a learnt/instinctive behaviour to avoid the future of a larger pack taking over their territory. For example, in this same documentary there was a mother who had something like 6 pups, she was howling, but sadly for her, she was on another packs territory, so the female from the other pack went into her makeshift den and killed every single pup after the pack had chased the mother away.

For the simple fact that in less than two years that pack would have been 7 adult wolves.

:/
The reason for wolves going after stranger pups could be better defined more broadly I.e., not limited to just territorial factors but also extended to resource and genetic competition factors, too.

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:25 am
by paperpaws
Koa wrote:The narrator does mention does pose the same question, and mentions that they might have not killed her because they knew each other (or were related)?
Koa wrote:Ive actually watched this whole documentary, the narrator speculates the intruder was once part of the pack or is related to them. That makes it more feasible that they decided not to be vicious.
I did catch that, but my scepticism kicked in and I am wondering whether wolves would apply that kind of, arguably emotion-based "logic", to each other. I'd think they would feel more inclined to defend the pups rather than let an attacker off based on familiarity. I find the theory it was simply not worth the effort more likely.

The pup killing makes more sense to me. That's interesting if not a bit morbid, haha.

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:11 am
by Koa
paperpaws wrote:
Koa wrote:The narrator does mention does pose the same question, and mentions that they might have not killed her because they knew each other (or were related)?
JubJub wrote:Ive actually watched this whole documentary, the narrator speculates the intruder was once part of the pack or is related to them. That makes it more feasible that they decided not to be vicious.
I did catch that, but my scepticism kicked in and I am wondering whether wolves would apply that kind of, arguably emotion-based "logic", to each other. I'd think they would feel more inclined to defend the pups rather than let an attacker off based on familiarity. I find the theory it was simply not worth the effort more likely.

The pup killing makes more sense to me. That's interesting if not a bit morbid, haha.
I’m not sure if, when they said that, either the narrator or JubJub were emphasizing an emotional attachment, so I can’t speak for them. But I was thinking more along the lines of simple recognition— if a wolf came across a relation in a non-confrontational situation, wouldn’t it recognize that they were related and if so, how would that affect their actions? The act of recognition (realizing the other is not a complete stranger by way of blood) itself may be enough to play a role and consequently “emotion” may need not even play a part in their interaction.

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:45 am
by Phasoli
Koa wrote:I’m not sure if, when they said that, either the narrator or JubJub were emphasizing an emotional attachment, so I can’t speak for them. But I was thinking more along the lines of simple recognition— if a wolf came across a relation in a non-confrontational situation, wouldn’t it recognize that they were related and if so, how would that affect their actions? The act of recognition (realizing the other is not a complete stranger by way of blood) itself may be enough to play a role and consequently “emotion” may need not even play a part in their interaction.
Is this to say that a wolf will naturally refrain from killing a wolf that it recognizes to be related by blood? So, in theory, would a dispersal wolf be able to linger about its natal pack without being killed in this way?

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:36 pm
by DaniBeez
Phasoli wrote:So, in theory, would a dispersal wolf be able to linger about its natal pack without being killed in this way?
Yep! I summarized some points on dispersal patterns and behaviours on this post.

Here are the relevant points:
- Budding: a wolf disperses from its natal pack, and establishes a territory with a floater that overlaps/is right beside with its natal pack's territory.
- Floaters are wolves that disperse and travel around the local population along territory boundaries, seeking out potential mates to establish a territory with within the territory mosaic already present.
- Groups of floaters do exist.

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:49 am
by Phasoli
Wow! Thanks for the information. I learned something new today.

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:29 am
by DaniBeez
No problem Phasoli :). I didn't know about it either until I read about it!

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:07 am
by loboLoco
paperpaws wrote:The sound effects (that are used in the WQ game too) put me off a bit due to them just sounding comically fake, but I get why they were added, heh.
They were likely added later (here's a fascinating podcast about foley in nature docs: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/sounds-natural/), but from what I've heard, they would be accurate: Wolves make a lot of threatening noises in this situation, trying to intimidate the stranger to prevent a fight. But actual full-blown fights are deadly silent.

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:01 pm
by paperpaws
loboLoco wrote:
paperpaws wrote:The sound effects (that are used in the WQ game too) put me off a bit due to them just sounding comically fake, but I get why they were added, heh.
They were likely added later (here's a fascinating podcast about foley in nature docs: https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/sounds-natural/), but from what I've heard, they would be accurate: Wolves make a lot of threatening noises in this situation, trying to intimidate the stranger to prevent a fight. But actual full-blown fights are deadly silent.
Classic case of poor phrasing on my part, sorry! I didn't mean the sounds themselves sound fake, but rather, the fact that I instantly recognised them as the sounds from WolfQuest made it obvious that they were edited in. The associations made it harder for me to maintain immersion, haha.

Thanks for the link and information, though!

Re: Wolf Pack Defending Against Stranger

Posted: Tue May 15, 2018 4:17 pm
by Phasoli
My entire view of documentaries has changed now, haha. I never knew that some sound effects were inserted into nature documentaries to make up for what couldn't be recorded. I knew that some of those vocalizations sounded familiar. There was another occasion where I heard sound effects similar to those in WolfQuest while I was watching a documentary called "Snow Wolf Family and Me".

Either way, it's amazing to me how wildlife photographers are able to capture these scenes in high definition without getting too close or disrupting the animals. A wolf pack driving a stranger off is something you don't get to see everyday!