Senate panel approves bill that could pull Arizona out of wo

[TheImmortalWolf]

what do you mean stay alive its not like there surviving its what the wolves are trying to do

You have obviously never been forced to care for yourself and earn your own money.

and neither have you, your not any better than me

No. Just no.
A lot of farmers are extremely poor and cannot afford to put up fences of the sort. Like La Striata said, YOU give them the money and perhaps they'll do so. That idea is only a little better than your first.
Also, how do you know it was the wolves' land first? The wolves might have migrated to that region only a short while ago.
It is the farmer's land. A wolf would defend its territory, so why shouldn't a human? Many of these farmers are trying to survive. They rely on their cattle, and if they allow predators to hunt their animals, they're as good as dead.
Open your eyes, seriously.

1. i obviously cant give them money.the higher fences will actualy pay off in the long run since they wont have to keep buying more bullets
2. it is because th wolves were living there than farmers moved in and chased away the wolves.how can you not see that.
3. im not the one who needs to open there eyes.you are blind to the wolves suffering,all you care about is humans suffering.animals have feelings too

[pickledham]

1. Okay, compared to fencing bullets are cheap. You forget that someone has to pay money to maintain the fences as well. If the farmer is in a rough spot and he can't pay to fix his fence, he'd be better off shooting the wolf.
2. I highly doubt the farmers just "moved in." Some farming families have owned their land for generations. They didn't just suddenly grab a gun and shoot off wolves while they set up a farm. If you can give me evidence to suggest that they did indeed take over the wolves' territory, then go for it.
3. I highly doubt the wolves are suffering. They probably just see cattle as an easy meal and hunt there instead of going after wild game. I do care when animals suffer, but the pain of a fellow human being is cause for more concern. To me human lives are much more valuable than a wolf's. Especially when the wolf gives me nothing at all.

[alethe]

what do you mean stay alive its not like there surviving its what the wolves are trying to do

You have obviously never been forced to care for yourself and earn your own money.

and neither have you, your not any better than me :x

You don't know me at all, so you can't speak for me. I can tell that you're pretty naive on the subject however.

How about you focus on animals that actually need help rather than wolves, who are doing just fine where they are. I honestly don't think you care about the river dolphin, that has fewer than a thousand members in the wild. Or even the tiger, who's population is dropping rapidly. Wolves are stable, even with the hunting. Besides, whining on a forum isn't going to get you anywhere.

Besides, you'll have to buy a TON of bullets and use them before that fence pays off. Bullets are cheap. I own a gun, and when I want to shoot I pay for my own.

[La Striata]

1. i obviously cant give them money.

So where will they get it from?

[firedog6]

pickledham, really, you don't care about wolves?! That's just too far. Wolves have the exact same nervous system. They feel the same pain! And wolves have given you everything! If it were not for wolves, you'd be drawing that a storm comes in moon phase eleven on your cave wall with a stick. We'd still be in the cave man centuries! I mean, really, this whole thing about animals being lower than humans is so stupid. Mentally or physically ill children with poor parents never did anything for you, but they're humans, so are you just gonna allow it if some guy came in and shot the poor kid? I don't think so. I think you'd be
mourning. So because that poor, simple-minded wolf just went and thought cattle was easy prey but ended up having its heart blasted out for no reason a concern to you? Remember: that sick little child in the hospital with high un-payable medical bills never did anything from you. But yeah, riiiiight, that weak little wolf in the forest with a stomach constantly grumbling stomach never did anything either. The wolf was shot, you don't care. The child was shot, tears overflow your home. That just makes so much sense!

And yes, you are blind to the wolves suffering. Just suck it up. I know that wolf population is stable and that tigers and river dolphins are practically dead, but neither of us ever mentioned their names! Were we really supposed to!? Quit saying "I honestly don't think you care about tigers or dolphins." when we never even spoke of them here. Know what? I honestly don't think you care about the poor helpless wolves being shot. It's those souls of the wolves that were shot. The individuals, those are the ones we mourn of. You treat animals as if they were lower and less important simply because who they are. You know, we're all different. Wolves are furry humans with four legs, a tail, and a long nose and ears that can't tell right from wrong and that's all they are. Like, if the animal population is stable, you don't give a roll of toilet paper about the helpless wolves being painfully shot every hour. Yet you do care about the poor tigers being shot every hour. They're both the same! Sure, tigers have more risk of going extinct, and wolves don't, but what's the difference!? Don't you pick that up YET? They both feel the same pain!!!

pickledham:

"I highly doubt the wolves are suffering. They probably just see cattle as an easy meal and hunt there instead of going after wild game."

The wolves obviously are suffering. You think that animals only feel the pain of the bullet if they are endangered? Really?

[pickledham]

That sick child contributes to society all the same. If someone comes and shoots a sick child for NO reason of course I'm going to be angry. That person had a life ahead of them, and they did nothing to deserve it. While the wolf was killing a poor man's cattle, cattle that he depends on to survive. A member of my species is worth more to me than a canine. Sorry hun, that's how it is. Stop trying to make the bad guy here because I don't agree with what you have to say.
Also, no I would not. I'd probably be doing what I'm doing right now. Wolves aren't the ones with the large primate brain here. Sure, dogs might have helped along the line, but in the long run we are the ones who are self-aware and creative. It took wolves a very loooooong time for them to become a domesticated dog. We have higher order thinking skills while wolves do not. Do not be sarcastic to me when you have no idea what you're talking about. I never said I didn't care about wolves, just that I would rather a member of my OWN SPECIES live comfortably. Remember, you rely on that farmer too. He provides YOU, the consumer, with food.
Sure, wolves have the same nervous system, they may feel the same pain, but that wolf did do something to me. It may not have been aware of it, but it was basically stealing from the man who put all that effort into raising his cattle so he could make money and survive. The "poor" wolf can make that same kind of effort and find food elsewhere. Another wolf pack would kill/run off stranger wolves, so why can't a human? You know, we're all animals here. The wolf is not suffering in any way. Actually, being shot is a far easier way to go than be ripped to pieces.
I hope you realize that wolves are probably not shot all that often, and regardless, wolves are not furry humans. They cannot think like us, and while yes, they do feel some of the same emotions as us, they are not as aware as humans. We're not even in the same family, or even the same order. There's a reason we're called Homo sapien and they are Canis lupus.
I would like you to give me proof wolves are suffering. Honestly, if you didn't care about our opinions you would not fight back. Have a good day.

[Neamara]

While there are a couple of valid points brought up, keep in mind that everyone is entitled to have their opinions so please try and avoid veering into an argument. You can discuss via private message if it's absolutely necessary.

Just as a reminder:

- It is best to refrain from debates or posting topics you know will cause debates.
Good examples of such controversial issues are wolf hunts, wolves or humans being killed, and especially aerial hunting. As long as you politely discuss the matter, there is not a problem. Aerial hunting is very controversial and likely, if a thread is posted, will end up being carefully watched or locked. Post or discuss at your own risk. If we feel something is too controversial to be brought up on this forum, it will be locked.
- Remain respectful of all opinions.
Self-explanatory. Please remember to be considerate of others and their opinions.

Source: Controversial Threads

• http://wolfquest.org/bb/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=64399

Much appreciated.

[alethe]

you don't care about wolves?!

Just because they care about members of their OWN SPECIES more does not mean they don't care about wolves. Wolves are not suffering. Also, don't compare wolves to humans. We aren't even in the same genus.

[La Striata]

If it were not for wolves, you'd be drawing that a storm comes in moon phase eleven on your cave wall with a stick. We'd still be in the cave man centuries!

The North American wolf subspecies involved in this Arizona controversy had no part whatsoever in the development of the dog.

[firedog6]

Uh, yeah it does. If you need proof, I don't have any, so I am quitting this. You might but I am sure that I don't need some www.knoweverything.com to tell me that we wouldn't be here without wolves. I know that you think because wolves are stupider than us that it's okay for them to be killed but actually it isn't. How would you like it if you were simple as a wolf and someone shot you? You'd hate it. And wolves are furry humans that can't tell right from wrong.

~Cyclone

[alethe]

If you need proof, I don't have any

Then how do you know you're right? I don't think you're a natural history expert.

[firedog6]

Of course I'm not, and you're not one either. If I don't have proof, but I know it's true, and that's all that matters. Like I said, I don't need www.knowitallz.com to tell me that I'm right.

[alethe]

Believing something to be true and actual fact can be two very different things.

[Nordue]

• The same crowd deserves the same reminder on this topic as well:
  

  May I remind you all—some of you for a second or third time--when we do not agree on something that is a matter of opinion, the best course of actions is to not respond at all. That goes to river6, TheImmortalWolf, pickledham, LaStriata, and firedog6. We do not continue the disagreement until things spiral out of proportion if we wish to be able to discuss topics like this one.
  
  If you feel a topic is getting out of hand, report it, don't add to it.

  Even more insulting to me is the blatant disregard of a moderator's warning, mere posts ago.
  
  [Topic locked]